My enemy, the lateral raises...How to best approach these (weight/sets/reps, etc)

Fitato

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Mystic from Kansas
Posts: 443
"Hello"
I have a gripe with lateral raises - they're so tough for me! I hate them. But they also spark my competitive side - I want to compete against my own body and continue getting better and better at them.

What is the general advice for what weight, set, and reps you should do for lateral raises? And is it better to do it all at once, or can you also do it multiple times throughout the day if you have weights at home? How many times a week?

If more individualized information would be best, here's the details of how they've been going for me so far (you can skip reading this):

I really have only tended to do them after I've already done some sets and reps on the chest press, and/or the next day like today where I'm still a little sore from the chest press. I'd like to continue doing them after the chest press, but I also want to start doing them on non-chest press days, since I have 5-pound dumbbells at home.

I can do 10 reps per set with 5 pound weight most of the time (when I say 5 pounds, I mean 5 pounds per dumbbell/per arm). I've tried doing lateral raises with 10 pound weights, but I could only do two reps, tried to do another two reps later, but only could do one, and then ended up being very sore from that for over a week. But this was after doing the chest press, so idk how many I can do with 10 pounds on a non-spent-arm day.

Yesterday, I did the chest press (55 pounds), then later tried doing 11x3 lateral raises with 5 pounds, but I only managed 11 on the first set and had to do 10 on the last two sets.

Right now, I'm still slightly feeling the affects from the chest press (and lateral raises?) from yesterday, and I also did day 30 of AoS:CE, but I still tried doing more lateral raises today. I tried doing 13x3 (5 pounds), but I only got to 13 on the first two sets, and got to 11 (failure) on the last set.
Debating what my best adjustment would be.

I'm thinking of trying to do 11x3 or 12x3 next time, or 10x4. (This is assuming I do them at home, not right after using the chest press). But on the chest press days...I'm thinking of doing 10x3.


Thanks for your ideas/help!
 

TopNotch

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Ranger from Australia
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"Motivation is temporary. Discipline is forever."
How are you with bent-over lateral raises?
I wouldn't do chest presses one day and lateral raises the next. They are both push exercises so you want to give those muscles a chance to heal and strengthen. If you've used one muscle group one day, you will want to let that rest and recuperate before using it again, so have at least one day off between.
Lateral raises are hard and it's very common to have to lower the weight for them. What is the problem with doing them with just the 5pound weights? Are they too easy at that weight? If so, try doing them slower. You could also do them before the chest press. You didn't say how many you do of these but you might find that you reduce numbers after doing lateral raises. No big deal. One other thing you might consider is just doing a couple - and I really mean a couple - from time to time throughout the day, nice and slow, ensuring excellent form. What weight you choose for that is up to you; you might like to go heavier when you're doing just a couple in a kind of Greasing the Groove mode. Do you have any option of getting weights between 5 and 10 pounds?
The important thing is to keep doing them, even a few, even with light weights. The body adapts, and in its own (often infuriatingly slow!) time.
 

Fitato

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Mystic from Kansas
Posts: 443
"Hello"
@TopNotch Never tried bent-over lateral raises, but I'm sure I could do them about the same. Is there much of a difference?

I thought that doing lateral raises the day after the chest press would be okay since it's not nearly as taxing on my arms are the chest press is, but I'll heed your advice and give myself a break from the lateral raises!
Is there a benefit to doing lateral praises before the chest press? I'm assuming you're suggesting this so that I can put more focus on improving my lateral raises more than focusing on improving on the chest press? But I actually would rather prioritize the chest presses, it's my favorite workout :)
But if you think I can do lateral raises first without it impacting how I do on the chest press, then I'd give it a go! I do 4 sets of 12 on the chest press.

Both gyms I go to only have 5 and 10 pound weights, and money is really tight right now, so I'd rather not buy more weights right now. Will definitely do that if I get in a better spot financially though :)

@Henry Thanks for sharing! Unfortunately, that program has too many exercises that I'm not physically capable of right now. I'll check it out again once I become more fit though, it looks like a lot of fun :heart: Maybe I'll play around with it and just pick the days that I can do.
 

lofivelcro

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"Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today"
There actually was a thread just a few days ago about lateral raises. Yes, they're hard. Yes, most people have to do them with a much lower weight. It's one of those lifts that you can only gradually progress in, usually. So, the jump from 5 to 10 pounds is... pretty huge and not really advised. As for whether it's push or pull.... That's a pretty heated discussion. I go with pull and usually trained them on pull day, doing them after back rows, for example. I usually have more trouble with bent over raises than with standing lateral raises.
See if you do proper form. Stand straight, pull your shoulders slightly back and down, lift your arms and keep your hands below your elbows, not higher! This often gets done wrong.
Personally, I would do lateral raises on the day after chest presses, categorising them as a pull exercise. But you have to feel that one out a bit. Additionally, I found sets of 2 x 8 the best for isolated exercises like those. If you do them on the day of chest presses, I'd do them after, because isolation after compound. Yes, I'm saying the opposite of @TopNotch, I know, but I like following classic established routines. That doesn't mean that his approach is not correct. Like I said, you have to feel it out for yourself.
It's a hard lift. You'll progress slowly, most likely. But it's also a movement you usually don't do, so your muslces need to adapt. Be patient, and add weight slowly, in small increments.
 

Fitato

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Mystic from Kansas
Posts: 443
"Hello"
@lofivelcro I did see that thread and thought it was funny that we both had questions about it! My question was more about sets/reps, but the posts in that thread were helpful too!

Didn't realize 5 to 10 pounds was such a big difference! If I work my arms out enough, both with lateral raises and other exercises (primarily the chest press), do you think I could be able to make that leap? And if so, how long it'd take?

By 2 x 8, do you mean 2 reps, 8 sets, or do you mean 2 sets, 8 reps? And with how long of a rest in-between sets? In either case, since I've been doing 10(reps)x3(sets), that is too low for 5 pounds for me, and too high for 10 pound weights. If it's 2 reps, I miiiight be able to manage 3 sets with the 10 pound weights. Probably not.

Guess I will need to make buying those 7-pound weights a priority for now! Maybe 8 pounds since that's closer to 10.

Thanks for your help
 

lofivelcro

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Hunter from the sticks
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"Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today"
Tbh, when I progress on lateral raises, I raise the weight by around 250g-500g (0.5lb-1lb) per side, depending on the weights I have.. That's the kind of progression I'm thinking about.
The chest press targets mostly different muscles than the lateral raise. See https://exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidLateral/DBLateralRaise and https://exrx.net/WeightExercises/PectoralSternal/DBBenchPress for comparison. The carry over probably is minimal, so I'd say you get better at lateral raises by... doing lateral raises.
With 2 x 8 I mean two sets of eight reps, with 60 to 90 seconds of rest between them. You could also do much more reps with lighter weights, but that gives you diminishing returns, imo, so going with @TopNotch's suggestion of doing them really slow and controlled is the better plan of action.
You can make the leap, probably surprisingly fast, especially if you go down with the reps. High weights usually call for lower reps, anyway. If you can't or won't buy another weight, I would do the following:
Choose a set x rep range. 2 x 8, 2 x 10, I wouldn't go much higher than this. Do that with your lower weights, after a one or two upper body compound lifts or when your muscles are warm enough. Two days later, at the earliest, switch to the higher weights and do as many reps per set as you can with good form, but not more than your chosen set x rep range. Note that number down.
If you put at least one rep more on any of the sets, continue with the weight.
If you stall, try the same weight the next time. If you still stall, go back to the lower weights for a round.
If you get lower numbers, go back to the lower weights.


If you only rest that group of muscles one day between workouts, think about resting for two days after three workout days. For example, Monday, Wednesday and Friday lateral raises, Saturday and Sunday are off. If you absolutely don't progress for some time, give your lats a week rest and try again.

Edit: Seems like I'm only writing half of what I'm thinking but the more I edit the messier it gets. I leave the post as it is for now, maybe it makes sense already. If something's unclear, please don't hesitate to ask.
 
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TopNotch

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Ranger from Australia
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"Motivation is temporary. Discipline is forever."
Another thing you could consider is wrist weights. They often come in half-kilo to one kilo weight. If your gym (or you) has anything like that, you could add that to the lower weights. But going slow - and I mean really slow! - will make even light weights a great challenge.
@lofivelcro 's suggestions are excellent, and I don't think you could go wrong following something like that.
Why did I suggest you do lateral raises before chest press? Because you like chest presses! You can do them; they don't challenge you (in their performance, I mean. Weight is a whole other issue). Do what challenges you most first so that you can give it your best effort. That also removes the excuse of "oh, I didn't do so well because I was tired after the ..." ;)
I find bent-over lateral raises easier than standing up ones simply because the back is more engaged, rather than just the shoulders.

P.S. I classify lateral raises as 'push' exercises because you are pushing the weights away from the body, just as you are with chest presses.
 

lofivelcro

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"Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today"
P.S. I classify lateral raises as 'push' exercises because you are pushing the weights away from the body, just as you are with chest presses.
But do you, really? I think you don't push them away, because the distance from your body never really changes. And the whole movement is more pull-like, to me. I looked that up yesterday because of this thread and stumbled over side-long discussions regarding that, so it's definitely a controversial issue :LOL:
I like the idea with the wrist weights for a stop gap, especially for that kind of movement. Another thing to consider, definitely.
As for the bent-over lateral raises, I actually find them harder to do, because I don't feel like I have the same 'leverage" as standing up. Interdasting :puurke:
 

TopNotch

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Ranger from Australia
Posts: 1,610
"Motivation is temporary. Discipline is forever."
@lofivelcro Yes, I feel that I'm pushing my arms apart. True, the distance doesn't change since the arms are straight all the time - unlike push-ups which are clearly a 'push' because the ground is pushed away from you (or vice versa, depending on how you view it) - but for me, anything that moves away from my body is a push. I know there is controversy on this, so I've thought and considered and decided that if something is coming toward the midsection, it's a pull and if it's going away, it's a push.
Interesting about bent-over raises. Perhaps my back is just stronger than my shoulders and so I find them easier... In that case, I'd better work on my shoulders more! :LOL:
 
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